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Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
02-15-2017, 06:32 PM
Post: #11
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
When you have the largest military ever that can drop a smart bomb on someone's gathering, well those people that bomb aren't terrorist, they that bomb from 30 k feet are what they always have been, government.

I know many of us here feel that there is quite a bit of scum out there and I'm not here to support the scum, but just to question the knee jerk reaction of the leos in any situation. I always remember the guy in the wheel chair with a knife, wasn't it in Lewiston, the guy was so bad, might have had some kind of super powers besides being a cripple, that got his life ended.

The cops are trigger happy, there is no question about that.

And back to the Guns and Ammo thread, the populace are trigger happy as they follow the leos for guidance. I read and comment on many firearms forums and the whole idea of self-defense is high capacity, now I have nothing against high capacity, but one has to wonder why can't i kill a perp with 3 rounds out of a 1911, and the answer is well you might miss.

Well I can understand that I might miss, but do I have to miss 15 times? And if I'm missing 15 times, where do the other 15 shots go into? Reminds me of NY finest recent chase of a perp thru NY city streets cracking off shot after shot, I can't remeber how many the wounded but was a handful.

Thank god they were only shooting those wonder nines where you need 3 or 4 to kill someone.

So I'm voting yes I think leos now a days just shoot the full "clip" and reload another, because that is exactly what they are trained for, meaning shooting "insurgents" and who cares about collateral damage.
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02-16-2017, 09:44 AM
Post: #12
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
It would be my opinion that there is a balance point missing in law enforcement training.

The average citizen is not a criminal. A tail light, license plate light, or who knows can quit working without your immediate knowledge. That does not provide probable cause to believe you are a drunk driver.

I have seen dim witted, poorly trained officers let loose on the public, who at midnight will come roaring up on your bumper as though a missile, and when you stray left or right, weaving inside your lane because you are focused on the incoming missile in your rear view mirror, they pull you over as a suspected impaired driver.

I have know cops that were liars, even under oath, thieves, druggies, drunks, womanizers, you name it, yet these people are employed to enforce laws that they have little regard personally for.

I have seen the ambitious morons whose goal in life was looking for "a big bust" that would gain them publicity and a boost for their resume. They persecute innocent people looking for a specter that does not exist. As just one example, a personal friend of mine, a woman 60 years old, was pulled over by an officer who told her he pulled her over because she had a fancy shiny black car and that alerted him that she must be doing something illegal.
Of course she was let go without any warning or summons, because she had not violated any law at all.

In part, I blame training because it has steadily fostered the "them" and "us" mentality. The old Peace Officer was replaced by the revenue agent, law enforcement officer. I have said for a long time that we would see a backlash against police because of this type of paramilitary training. We have seen some officers killed in the line of duty because of the growing anger across the nation. This should not be. Officers are our next door neighbors, our friends, our relatives. What is this them and us nonsense?

The other side of the coin is also sickening. I hate to see a fine officer lose their life because they erred on the side of caution. Officers are only normal people who are sometimes trust into horrific circumstances where they have seconds to make the right decision, and lawyers will have months to sift through.

I believe an audit of the mission statements and training for LEOs may be a step in the right direction. Policy manuals are already grievously large, but are they beneficial, as written, to the public and the agency?
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02-16-2017, 09:49 AM
Post: #13
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
One of our employees is married to a LEO, she tells of feeling so relieved at night when he comes home, listening to the sound of Velcro as he removes his vest. Not many of us have to wear a vest to work, not an easy job, some of the Crap they have to deal with would have me in a corner somewhere.
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02-16-2017, 12:25 PM (This post was last modified: 02-16-2017 01:08 PM by Mike G.)
Post: #14
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
some of the Crap they have to deal with would have me in a corner somewhere

Islander hard to argue against that.

One of the problems that leos have is that they are called too often, too many people can't solve problems on their own, they have to call in the authorities. In fact they are encouraged to do so. Then they wonder why johnny in the wheel chair gets a funeral.

as usual you can always find something interesting on the net

and deaths by occupation 2011
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02-16-2017, 02:55 PM
Post: #15
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
The other thing is the number of LEO's that are present at these shootings, lots of adrenaline and testosterone on sight. Good to know they are there to help in time of need, just like the Wardens, USCG etc.
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02-17-2017, 03:51 PM
Post: #16
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
I don't know if any of you guys ever have watched many "cop shooting" events, that were recorded as they happened, or not. But I can tell you one thing, the semi-auto pistol with high capacity magazines is one of the worst things that ever happened to law enforcement!

There is an attitude present now that goes something like this: ......"Well I don't have to take time to aim now as I have 15 rds and will surely hit him with a couple. That is one piss poor attitude for ANY shooter to have. The first rule of to take time to AIM! Years ago I can remember reading stories about teaching cops to shoot, with the old S&W .357. You figure that you might get hit yourself, but you have to take that time to aim, and make certain you hit the perp, making ALL your shots count, before he can shoot you, or anyone else, again.

Police officers are some of the poorest shooters in the country, training no more than they absolutely have to......and held to some of the lowest standards possible, otherwise many of them would NEVER qualify!

When was the last time you heard of a cop, in Maine, having an accidental discharge? When was the last time you heard of an AD with a S&W revolver? This high cap magazine mentality, has led to lots of BS where the cops shoot the hell out of the bystanders while the bad guy runs away unharmed. Happens often across the USA!

The worst problem with the police today is this "thin blue line" which, in THEIR minds makes it THEM against US (everybody else). Here's a good example:

......"Jose Guerena was a U.S. Marine veteran who served in the Iraq War and was killed in his Tucson, Arizona, home, on May 5, 2011, by deputies of the Pima County Sheriff’s Department SWAT team, while they were executing a warrant to search his home in relation to an ongoing investigation into illegal drug smuggling from Mexico. In September 2013, the four police agencies involved agreed to pay Guerena's wife and children $3.4 million as a settlement, without admitting wrongdoing in their killing of Guerena".......

The final police assault was "triggered" when one of the deputies, outside the door, had an AD with his Glock. Upon hearing that shot, everyone else emptied their magazines!

........"The Sheriff's Department initially claimed that Guerena had fired on officers; at least three of the SWAT members including the team commander reported in their post-operation debriefings that they had observed muzzle flashes aimed at them from inside the house After an examination of the rifle Guerena allegedly pointed at the officers however, it was determined that the rifle had not been fired; the safety was still engaged. Other officers claimed they saw splinters from the doorjamb being hit by bullets; the shots that caused this were determined to come from other members of the SWAT team themselves. "There were five officers at the door beginning to make entry into this home, when they engaged this individual that they believed was actually firing at them."[7] Other versions of this story claim that officers started shooting after Guerena pointed the gun at them, though under questioning they were initially unsure whether he had actually moved to target them.[5] A video of the raid shows roughly 38 seconds expired from the time the police briefly sounded a siren upon pulling into Guerena's driveway until they shot him.[8] At this point the five person team fired at least 71 rounds at Guerena in less than seven seconds!"........

They lied like hell, and many more have/do....often

Mike said something a couple days back that I have often thought about. In major crimes, in the long ago past, there was often a "coroner's jury" chosen to investigate the crime/action. This was made up of community citizens, known for being good, level headed people. This group would make an investigation and issue a final report. These folks usually had NO STAKE in the outcome, unlike what we have today.

In Maine police shooting are investigated by the Attorney general's office. The AG's office is, for all intents and purposes, part and parcel of the law enforcement community. This is tantamount to the cops investigating themselves!

And that is a disgrace that must be corrected if we are ever to stop this BS! The Police are NOT the army....and the civilian population, is NOT the enemy! The role of the army is to KILL the enemy. The role of civilian LEO's, by contrast, is to end the situation with the minimum force necessary!

All of this being said, I still believe there are grounds for LEO's using deadly force if necessary. Based on what I have read of this incident it does NOT seem unreasonable in this particular case. A bad buy had committed a major crime, with a weapon, a crime that is punishable by death in some parts of the country, and, instead of giving up when faced by the law, deliberately used his vehicle as a weapon, a situation which can justify the use of deadly force, even by one of us civilians if we were in such a dire spot.

Of course this is based upon reports from a media which are becoming well known for NOT being able to know if they wiped their butt or not!

This is EXACTLY the kind of incident that JUSTIFIES the use of a "civilian investigation board".

It is said that citizens DON'T understand Law Enforcement issues.


The COPS don't understand,or care, about CIVILIAN thoughts on these situations....which just goes to make the next event happen sooner!

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02-20-2017, 01:06 AM (This post was last modified: 02-20-2017 01:10 AM by Mike G.)
Post: #17
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle

well said, I don't know whether we can ever change the attitude of the average Mainer when it comes to just having the AGs office determine whether a possible prosecution of a LEO or other government official can be brought to the courts for wrongful deaths and damages.

Rumor has it that the Grand Jury process is just a rubber stamp on whatever is brought before it, "why would the cops arrest a guy if he wasn't guilty ?". I don't know if putting the review of leo damages before a grand jury would have much of an affect, but the questions remains why are LEO incidents placed within a different review?

Attitudes are changing, with the reality of our government, the idea that government knows best and we the children must follow their rule and edict has become obvious by governments failure.
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02-20-2017, 09:11 PM
Post: #18
RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle
Here is another thought I have had for a while. If a police officer is involved in a "wrongful" death from a shooting while he was on the same thing that the law would do to Mike,or me, or any other citizen.

Hold him PERSONALLY responsible for the cost of HIS wrongful actions!

The 3.8 million paid to Guerena's widow was paid either by the city, or the city's insurers, either way the taxpayers footed the bill.

Why should a public employee, convicted of wrong doing be "indemnified" by the city from being held responsible for his OWN wrongful actions?

Why should the taxpayers be responsible for paying the damages due to the criminal action of one of their employees.

I bet you hold them PERSONALLY accountable and you might see a lot of this stop!

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