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Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - Printable Version

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Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - woodcanoe - 02-11-2017 01:51 PM

Vassalboro, ME

last night a robbery was committed in that area. The suspect truck was spotted and when approached by Maine State police, the truck tried to ram the cruiser!

The cops said the cruiser was deliberately rammed by the truck, and as a result of that action, the cops opened fire on the vehicle, killing a male occupant and wounding a female occupant.

A motor vehicle, when used in that fashion, is considered a "deadly weapon", just like a gun or knife. The officers were well within their rights, at least according to the story so far.

Sucks to be the "occupants" but if you make REALLY BAD choices sometimes, you often have to live....or die....with those choices!

Occupants not Identified by the police at the time of this writing.

Strongarm robberies and home invasions are becoming "rampant" in this state. Over time I expect even more of the bad guys will be killed, by cops as in this incident, or more likely by armed homeowners who choose NOT to be victims.

WC


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - Dale Tudor - 02-11-2017 05:49 PM

I've been on the receiving end of shots fired at me (they missed), and the sound of bullets zipping by one's head is a memorable experience.

Decades ago, while in training near the end of a 14 week firearms course at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, near Brunswick, GA, we had a shoot/don't shoot exercise.

During one of the scenarios (which consisted of a film projected on a screen and a pistol in my hand, which, when fired, would leave a mark on where the "bullet" hit the screen), a "bad guy" in a large straight truck at a loading dock refused my commands to stop, and was about to run me over. I shot him. The instructor stopped the film, checked the shot placement (the driver was, in fact, shot), then told me that I should not have shot him. The instructor restarted the film, and about a second later the driver stopped the truck, jumped out, and ran off. I told the instructor that the second part of the film was incorrect, as the driver died in the truck.

In another scenario, a "bad guy" took a female hostage in a public park. He fired at me several times, and when he was about 50 yards away, he released the hostage, who began to run away. When the hostage was about 3 yards away, I shot the bad guy. The instructor stopped the film, and said I should not have shot him. I disagreed, citing the fact that the bad guy was shot, and presumably down for the count. The instructor replied that at least half of the students in the class normally shoot the hostage. I told him I wasn't in that group.

The instruction was always interesting, and my desire was to have more of it.


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - woodcanoe - 02-11-2017 08:14 PM

How were you supposed to know that the guy in the truck was going to stop it and get out and run away. When it's headed at you.....it's a deadly weapon and allows the use of deadly force. I'm with your take on that one!

Dale, here's a question for you:

You are in a Rite Aid pharmacy, either in the line at the pharmacy counter....or nearby. A bad guy has gone up to the counter and demanded drugs, while saying he has a gun, but you don't see it. (Could also be a knife).

Do you draw your gun and try to stop it?

Same scenario but this time the guy is displaying a weapon.

Do you now take out your weapon and get involved?

I have asked this of several friends and gotten a variety of answers. This is just a little personal survey of mine that I work on when I have the opportunity.

WC

Update with new information on this incident.

The young woman that was in the truck died this afternoon from a gunshot wound. She was taken to the hospital in critical condition. She was 18......and pregnant!

......"Maine golf legend Dickie Browne thought he was going to die Friday after a burglar put a gun to his head, tied him up in the basement and ransacked his Vassalboro home........Dickie Browne, 57, then heard a noise in the garage and went to investigate. He found the man inside the garage and asked him what he was doing, said Taylor, 32........At that point the guy pulled a gun on him and took him into the home and tied him up and put him down in the basement,” Taylor Browne said. “It was some type of a handgun. He was tied with his arms around his back........He said the home was ransacked for about three hours. The man then took Dickie Browne’s pickup truck, a late model Toyota Tacoma, and sped away.........He said the guy didn’t want him to look at him, so he tried to obey because he had a gun,” Taylor said. “He thought that the guy was going to just kill him. He was feeling very fortunate that he didn’t kill him".......

Kennebec Journal Story

This was an armed robbery and kidnapping, that precipitated the large police response! There had been other robberies in the area also, that police were investigating. The man and girl were in another stolen truck when spotted by police. After ramming the cruiser three police officers opened fire on the truck which was well within their rights. In fact knowing that the bad guy was armed and had threatened, and kidnapped a person at gun point, gave the police even more reason to use deadly force. Unlike civilians the police have some right to use deadly force to stop a person they know is armed, and a threat, who is trying to run away.

It's unclear what part the woman played in all of this. Whether she was involved in the armed robbery is not known at this point in time. But, even if she was an innocent bystander, the fact that she was in the truck with a real bad guy puts her death on his actions where I come from.

Strong speculation at this point that the need for money to buy drugs fueled this incident.

I'm having trouble feeling sorry for the outcome of this. A vehicle can be, and is, a deadly weapon when used this way, If I had been an officer there I would have fired on the vehicle also.

WC


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - Dale Tudor - 02-11-2017 08:47 PM

(02-11-2017 08:14 PM)woodcanoe Wrote:  How were you supposed to know that the guy in the truck was going to stop it and get out and run away. When it's headed at you.....it's a deadly weapon and allows the use of deadly force. I'm with your take on that one!

Dale, here's a question for you:

You are in a Rite Aid pharmacy, either in the line at the pharmacy counter....or nearby. A bad guy has gone up to the counter and demanded drugs, while saying he has a gun, but you don't see it. (Could also be a knife).

Do you draw your gun and try to stop it?

Same scenario but this time the guy is displaying a weapon.

Do you now take out your weapon and get involved?

I have asked this of several friends and gotten a variety of answers. This is just a little personal survey of mine that I work on when I have the opportunity.

WC
1st Scenario: Yes, I get involved. While drawing my firearm, I seek to determine whether or not he has a weapon. And I check for bystanders, where they are, are any involved with him (on his side in this "transaction"), and is anyone in my line of fire or his. All of this must be done in one or two seconds, maybe three. I'll aim for mid body or his groin. Not too many bystanders behind his groin at close range. In my best command voice, I announce my presence by ordering him to drop to the floor and put his hands on his head. If he fails to comply, but is acknowledging my presence, I either repeat the command more loudly or more quietly (depending on how close I am to him), letting him know that he is about to either lose his life or the ability to ever father children. If he begins to react in a noncompliant manner, and I'm convinced he has a weapon or if I think my or someone else's life is in danger, then I shoot, providing there is no one behind him...or providing I'm close enough to leave powder burns on him or his clothes. I keep shooting until the threat from the miscreant is eliminated.

Have I ever done this? No. Would it turn out as described above? Quien sabe? The best laid plans usually do not survive the first contact with the enemy. But, training does. Muscle memory does. And so forth.

Second scenario: pretty much the same as above, with the caveat that it is necessary to catch the miscreant as unaware as possible, and always be as situationally aware as possible, taking as much care as possible that no innocents are harmed by my actions or by the response of the miscreant to my actions.

First rule that should precede all of the above: when in doubt, don't. Most pharmacy robberies in Maine are usually solved by the police.


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - woodcanoe - 02-11-2017 11:30 PM

Thanks for the response. I have asked several people with carry permits how they felt about this. Many say that if it did NOT appear that anyone's life was actually being threatened...they would stay out of it!

One of the things that many say is that Rite Aid, and many others, are not willing to defend their store so why should we be. Most everyone says that if it looked like someone was in imminent danger of being hurt or killed, they would shoot, that includes me too.

Personally I think they should be willing to defend the store.....and their employees! Just like I would if running a mom and pop store.

Do you know that if a Rite Aid employee is harmed during a robbery it is termed a "workplace" injury and the employee can NOT sue rite Aid?

They forbid their employees to defend themselves yet won't accept responsibility for the employees themselves! What a cowardly set up!

What a sordid mess of our nation Lawyers and bureaucrats have made!

WC


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - Mike G - 02-13-2017 03:05 AM

Many say that if it did NOT appear that anyone's life was actually being threatened...they would stay out of it!

I'd agree.

I also would question shooting two people that just rammed my vehicle, I'd have to be seriously threatened by that action rather than just worried about the vehicle or whether I could pursue or if they might escape.

Now if I was on a jury and found that evidence showed that 2 cruisers had pinned a vehicle in and the truck was operated in a way to move the cruisers and the leos got out of their vehicles and preceded to empty their pistols into the passenger compartment of the truck killing both perps, I'd definitely rule it a wrongful death.

If an attempt was made to disable the vehicle but an errant round killed one or both of the perps than that would not be or if the perps exited the vehicle with weapons etc

If you search the web you will find several incidents where a driver was killed by leos who got out of their vehicles and just sprayed the driver to stop them from getting away.

And not many get even a slap on the wrist for this excessive force.


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - Ugene - 02-13-2017 08:25 AM

You forget one aspect, Mike G.
The perp(s) used a firearm while committing the robbery the cops were called to.


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - woodcanoe - 02-13-2017 11:24 AM

(02-13-2017 08:25 AM)Ugene Wrote:  You forget one aspect, Mike G.
The perp(s) used a firearm while committing the robbery the cops were called to.
We were taught, in the handgun safety course that we took that if the cops are faced with a guy that they KNOW to be armed, and has committed a violent crime already, that gives them the right to use deadly force to stop him if need be, even if he is fleeing away from them. The knowledge that he could hurt someone else carries the day in this case!

It is not the officers fault that the woman was in the car, but hers, and the bad guy's responsibility.

The cops shot a guy in a pickup truck in Lewiston, just a few years back, that was justified. The guy was trying to run them down with the vehicle. There are numerous cases that demonstrate that the law considers a motor vehicle, in some circumstances, to be a deadly weapon just like a knife or a gun.

We don't really know much for details right now, I freely admit, but after reading what those cops KNEW that this guy had already done.....it's hard to fault them much at this point.

The bad guy is in the place he belongs in. The woman maybe collateral damage, to some extent, though we do NOT know just how much of a part, if any,she played in the kidnapping and other crimes. if she was a party to the criminal act she is just as guilty as the guy is.

If you sit outside the bank to drive the getaway car after a robbery, and your partner, in the bank, kills somebody, YOU are going up for the killing too, even though you weren't inside!

WC


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - Mike G - 02-13-2017 10:43 PM

It has become increasingly alarming the trigger happy nature of our LEOS, now whether this is a case of that I cannot judge from where I sit.

The fact that he had a firearm and his previous crime certainly shows that he could have deadly intent, using restraint by leos seems to have been thrown out the window on most of these incidents however. The fact that there is a dead 18 year old girl and her unborn shows that whomever was in that truck may have been fair game as far as the MSP were concerned. Maybe she was armed also?

The fact that this was also posted on the G&A discussion forum begs the question does the almost universal use of high capacity pistols encourage the spray and pray mentality of our law enforcement. Be interesting to see how many rounds were expended by how many officers, just a guess but the entire magazine by each.

All these incidents should be reviewed by a civilian board or mixture of both government and civilian officials. Having the law enforcement arm review their own has led to how many suggested prosecutions in Maine? They are all a bunch of boy scouts apparently. I believe the answer is none.

Life seems to have gotten pretty cheap with our government's war on drugs and terror.


RE: Robbery suspect "Rams" MSP cruiser. Cops open fire on vehicle - Ugene - 02-14-2017 08:13 AM

Strapping bombs on your person in order to kill as many infidels as possible, and ingesting poisonous substances just for fun....
Yeah, life is pretty cheap for some.